IRM reply 2

== pramanas against ritvikism ==

Rtviks ask: Where is ritvikism forbidden?

Answer: Argumentum ad ignorantium means "argument from ignorance". This fallacy occurs whenever it is argued that something must be true simply because it has not been proved false. 

The Vedic system is to support everything by g-s-s. So ritvikism has to be supported as well or rejected as nonvedic. 

Sastra clearly speaks about gurus, disciples and parampara, e.g. in BG 4.1-2.
That's the Vedic system so there's no need to forbid something else. But there're some quotes which rule out the vitual-only relationship between guru and disciple.


He who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination. (BG 16.23)

Low-class people, due to their gross ignorance, introduce a system of religion that deviates from the Vedic principles. Following their own mental concoctions they automatically fall down into the darkest regions of existence. (SB 5.6.11)

sruti-smriti-puranadi-
pancaratra-vidhim vina
aikantiki harer bhaktir
utpatayaiva kalpate

"Devotional service of the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the Upanishads, Puranas and Narada-pancaratra is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society." (Rupa Gosvami: Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu 1.2.101)

According to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this is the way an incarnation should be accepted. Srila Narottama dasa Thakura says, sadhu-sastra-guru-vakya, cittete kariya aikya. One should accept a thing as genuine by studying the words of saintly people, the spiritual master and the sastra. The actual center is the sastra, the revealed scripture. If a spiritual master does not speak according to the revealed scripture, he is not to be accepted. Similarly, if a saintly person does not speak according to the sastra, he is not a saintly person. The sastra is the center for all. Unfortunately, at the present moment, people do not refer to the sastras; therefore they accept rascals as incarnations, and consequently they have made incarnations into a very cheap thing. (Caitanya Caritamrta 2.20.352, p.)

== sastra against ritvikism ==

tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet
samit panih srotriyam brahma nistham

gurum abhigacchet - approach the guru
samit panih - with firewood for yajna in one's hand

It doesn't say 'ritvik abhigacchet' or anything like that. For virtual-only approach no firewood is needed. (Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12)

--

zrI-nArada uvAca
brahmacArI guru-kule
vasan dAnto guror hitam
Acaran dAsavan nIco
gurau sudRdha-sauhRdaH

brahmacArI = a brahmacari, a student living at the residence of the guru
gurukule = at the residence of the guru
vasan = by living
(Srimad Bhagavatam 7.12.1, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, 1976,
ISBN-10: 0912776870)


Zak ma povinnost gurua pozadat, aby svuj pokyn podporil sastrou. V opacnem pripade:

Vijaya, The scriptures forbid giving up the dIkSA-guru. However, if he is incapable of imparting proper knowledge of devotion and of VaiSNava etiquette, how can he be in a position to teach?

RaghunAtha dAsa BAbAjI, Before a person accepts formal initiation from a guru, he must test the guru as to whether he is well-versed in the Vedas and in the science of the Supreme Absolute Truth. Only such a bona fide guru is indeed able to instruct his disciple in all matters. It is true that the dIkSA-guru should not be rejected, but there are two bona fide reasons to give him up. 

First, if for some reason or another at the time of initiation the disciple did not recognize the devotional calibre of the guru and later found out that the guru was neither conversant with the conclusions of zAstra, nor a VaiSNava, so that he, the disciple, could not make any spiritual progress, then he, the disciple, should reject the unqualified guru. Many scriptural sources support this course of action, for example, the NArada-pajJcarAtra, as cited in Hari-bhakti-vilAsa, 1.62 [1.101], states:

yo vAkti nyAya rahitam 
anyAyena zRNoti yaH
tAv ubhau narakaM ghoraM 
vrajataH kAlam akSayam

Any person posing as an AcArya, but speaking unauthorized philosophy contrary to the teachings of the zAstra and any one who claims to be his disciple and hears such, thereby lending credibility to such nonsense, both of these are bound for Hell. (Narada Pancaratra quoted in Haribhaktivilasa 1.101, translation Sarvabhavana dasa. Jaiva Dharma 20/8. The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust 2003.)

--

en Wiki

Division of Veda and its transfer through paramparas is given in Bhagavata Purana:

te paramparayA prAptAs
tat-tac-chizyair dhRta-vrataiH
catur-yugeSv atha vyastA
dvAparAdau maharSibhiH

In this way, throughout the cycles of four ages, generation after generation of disciplesall firmly fixed in their spiritual vowshave received these Vedas by disciplic succession. At the end of each DvApara-yuga the Vedas are edited into separate divisions by eminent sages.
(Srimad Bhagavatam 12.6.47, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, 1999, ISBN-10: 0892132671)

--

(Krsna to Arjuna:)

ye me bhakta-janAH pArtha
na me bhaktAz ca te janAH
mad-bhaktAnAM ca ye bhaktAs
te me bhaktatamA matAH

My dear Partha, one who claims to be My devotee is not so. Only a person who claims to be the devotee of My devotee is actually My devotee. (Adi Purana, quoted in: Ravi Gupta. Restoring Our Respect for Sadhus. Back to Godhead 29-03, 1995)

--

Padma Purana quoted in Sabda-Kalpa-Druma Sanskrit-Sanskrit dictionary:

Sriiman naaraayaano brahmaa
naarado vyaasa eva ca
Sriila madhvaH padmanaabho
nRharir maadhavas tathaa

puruSottamo brahmaanyo
vyaasa-tiirtha-munis tathaa
Sriimal lakSmii-patiH Sriimaan
maadhavendra-puris tathaa

sampradaaya vihiinaa ye
mantraaste niSphalaa mataaH
ataH kalau bhaviSyanti
catvaaraH sampradaayinaH
Srii-brahma-rudra-sanakaa
vaiSNavaaH kSiti-paavanaaH

The guru parampara from Narayana to Madhavendra Puri. No ritviks.

--

Bible

Sometimes ritvik system is compared to Christianity. However, Gospel of John stresses physical presence of guru (Jesus) in the world and his staying together with followers.

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." (John 9:5)

"If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour." (John 12:26)


== guru and sadhu against ritvikism ==

Death precludes initiation:

However, Ramanuja was insistent. You know that death makes no distinction between the timely and the untimely," he said. "Do you not recall with what high expectations I went with you to meet Sri Yamunacarya? Providence cheated me then, so why should I trust him now by allowing any delay? Please give me shelter at your lotus feet right at this very moment"

Mahapurna was pleased by Ramanuja's words, and there on the banks of the lake in the shade of a flowering bakula tree he lit a sacrificial fire. In that fire he placed two metal discs, one bearing the sign of Lord Visnus cakra and the other that of His conch. When the two discs were hot, Mahapurna pressed them onto Ramanuja's right and left arms, thus marking them with the signs of Lord Visnu. Finally, meditating on the lotus feet of Yamunacarya, Mahapurna whispered the Vaisnava mantra into Ramanuja's ear. When the initiation was thus completed, Ramanuja returned to Kancipuram, accompanied by his guru and his gurus wife. (Naimisaranya dasa. The Life of Ramanujacarya, ch. 3. Vaisnava Educational Alternative 1989. ASIN B000W8LXV0)


175. Ramakrsna dasa Babaji Maharaja (previously named Rampratap)
"During Rampratap's stay in the cave, Balwant Rao, the elder bother of Madhava Rao, the King of Gwalior, once came and expressed his loyalty to him. It was arranged that Balwant would take spiritual initiation from Krsnacaitanya dasa. But when Krsna caitanya suddenly died, Balwant was initiated by Kesavdeva of Gopinathabag." (Haridasa Dasa of Haribol kutir, Navadvipa. Gaudiya Vaisnava Jivani.)

--

Diksa in a dream is not enough, although very auspicious:

"One day Sri Madhavendra Puripada appeared to mother Sri Sita in a dream and told her with sweet words 'Listen, O Sita devi! My name is Madhavendra. Sri Advaita Candra took mantra from me. I will now give you the same siddha mantra that I have given to your husband and that attracts Krsna. Krsna does not eat grains offered to Him by an uninitiated person, and it is a great offence to act in a wayward manner.'
"Sita-devi said: 'I am very fortunate that I met you. Please purify my heart and body with mantra initiation.' Then Madhavendra Puripada gave Krsna-mantra initiation to Sita, after which he vanished.
"When Mother Sita awoke, she said: 'How amazing! Madhavendra Puripada gave me mantra diksa in a visionary dream!' Sita devi told everything to Advaita Acarya, who said: 'You are very fortunate. All your bonds have been severed.'
"Still, despite Sita's vision, He gave her initiation again, according to the rules, on an auspicious moment."
(The Glories of Advaita Acharya, translation Advaita Dasa. Rasbiharilal and Sons, Loi Bazaar, Vrindavan. ISBN not given or unknown. http://nitaaiveda.com/All_Scriptures_By_Acharyas/Ishana_Nagara/Glories_of_Advaita_Acharya/ADVAITA_PRABHU'S_MARRIAGE.htm)

--

Guru and prospective disciple must live together for one year:

Sanatana Gosvami - Haribhaktivilasa 1.73-76, 2.187-242, Krsna 1.45

--

Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura - Sri Bhaktirasamrta sindhu bindu 1.1.4.4

(4) SAdhu-mArgAnusAraH
(Following the path of sAdhus)

The method by which the mind may be fixed at the lotus feet of KRSNa can be called sAdhana-bhakti. But one should pursue the very same path by which the previous mahAjanas attained the Lord. The reason for this is that the path which has already been chalked out by the mahAjanas is free from all distress and hardship, and it is the cause of all auspiciousness.

sa mRgyaH zreyasAM hetuH panthAH sastApa-varjjitaH
anavAptazramaM pUrve yena santaH pratasthire
(Bhakti-rasAmRta-sindhu 1.2.100, from Skanda-PurANa)

No path can be properly ascertained by any one individual. All the previous mahAjanas following in consecutive succession one after another have made the path of bhakti-yoga neat and clean and free from obstruction. They have eliminated all the petty obstacles and disturbances along the path and made it very easy and free from fear. Therefore, we must take support from the specific path which they have laid. Even though one may be engaged in aikAntikI-bhakti (exclusive devotion) toward Lord Hari, yet if one transgresses the regulations of the zAstras like the zruti, SmRti, PurANas or the PaJcarAtra, his bhakti can never produce a beneficial effect. Rather, it will simply be the cause of calamity.

zruti-smRti-purANAdi-paJcarAtra-vidhi vinA
aikAntikI harer-bhaktir-utpAtAyaiva kalpate
(Bhakti-rasAmRta-sindhu 1.2.101, from Brahma-yAmala)

--

bhavati vicintya viduSA
niravakAra guru-paramparA nityam
ekAntitvaM sidhyati yayod-
ayati yena hari-toSam

A discriminating person pleases Lord Hari by remembering the faultless disciplic succession of bona-fide spiritual masters, who enable one to attain the perfection of unalloyed devotional service.


yad uktaM padma-purANe
samprAdya-vihInA ye
mantrAs te niSphalA matAH
ataH kalau bhaviSyanti
catvAraH sampradAyinaH

zrI-brahma-rudra-sanakA
vaiSNavAH kSiti-pAvanAH
catvAras te kalau bhAvyA
hy utkale puruSottamAt

The Padma PurANa explains: "Unless one is initiated by a bona-fide spiritual master in the disciplic succession, the mantra he might have received is without any effect. For this reason four VaiSNava disciplic successions, inaugurated by LakSmI-devI, Lord BrahmA, Lord Ziva, and the four KumAras, will appear in the holy place of JagannAtha PurI, and purify the entire earth during the age of Kali."


rAmaNujaM zrIH svI-cakre
madhvAcARyaM caturmukhaH
zrI-viSNu-svAminaM rudro
nimbAdityaM catuHsanaH

LakSmI-devI chose RAmAnujAcArya to represent her disciplic succession. In the same way Lord BrahmA chose MadhvAcArya, Lord Ziva chose ViSNu SvAmI, and the four KumAras chose NimbArka. 


tatra guru-paramparA yathA

zrI-kRSNa-brahma-devarSi-
bAdarAyaNa-saMjJakAn
zrI-madhva-zrI-padmanAbha-
zrIman-nRhari-mAdhavAn

akSobhya-jayatIrtha-zrI-
jJAnasindhu-dayAnidhIn
zrI-vidyAnidhi-rAjendra-
jayadharmAn kramAd vayam

puruSottama-brAhmaNya-
vyAsatIrthAMz ca saMstumaH
tato lakSmIpatiM zrIman-
mAdhavendraM ca bhaktitaH

tac-chiSyAn zrIzvarAdvaita-
nityAnandAn jagad-gurUn
devam Izvara-ziSyaM zrI-
caitanyaM ca bhajAmahe
zrI-kRSNa-prema-dAnena
yena nistaritaM jagat

With great devotion we glorify the spiritual masters in the GauDIya VaiSNava disciplic successions. A list of their names follows: 1) KRSNa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, 2) BrahmA, 3) NArada, 4) VyAsa, 5) MadhvAcArya, 6) PadmanAbha, 7) NRhari, 8) MAdhava, 9) AkSobhya, 10) JayatIrtha, 11) JNAnasindhu, 12) DayAnidhi, 13) VidyAnidhi, 14) RAjendra, 15) Jayadharma, 16) PuruSottama, 17) BrAhmaNya, 18) VyAsatIrtha, 19) LakSmIpati, 20) MAdhavendra PurI, and 21) Izvara PurI, Advaita Prabhu and NityAnanda Prabhu (who were all disciples of MAdhavendra PurI). We worship Izvara PurI's disciple, Lord Caitanya MahAprabhu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who delivered the entire universe by granting the gift of kRSNa-prema (pure love of KRSNa). (Baladeva VidyAbhUSana. Prameya RatnAvali - The Jewels Of Truth 1.4-7. Rasbihari Lal & Sons 2009. ISBN-10: 8184030606)

--

Need for a constant guidance of guru, not just following eternally free pure devotees:

"Unless this fact is born in mind, the conditioned soul may be tempted to undervalue the constant guidance of the guru on the hypocritical plea of following in the footsteps of the eternally free pure devotees. Those, therefore, who suppose that deliverance from the bondage of this world should be practicable without the constant guidance of the spiritual preceptor, confound the conditioned state with the free." (Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Maharaja: Associates of Sri Caitanya http://bvml.org/SBSST/aosc.html)

--

SP:

param-parA - a series one after another (SB 4.29.36)
paramparaH - the continual succession, one after another (SB 5.4.14)


SP: "by reading books you cannot understand"

The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The BhAgavatam (6.3.19) says, dharmaM tu sAkSAd bhagavat-praNItam: the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help lead one to the right path. Nor by independent study of books of knowledge can one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. (BGAII 4.34,p.)

Prabhupada: Well, if that sort of remark is given it is not against the sastra, but it was not necessarily previously. His direct association... Caitanya Mahaprabhu says,
sadhu sanga sadhu sanga sarva sastra kaya
lava matra sadhu sange sarva siddhi haya [Cc. Madhya 22.54]
"Even a moment's association with a pure devoteeall success." Not necessarily that one has to acquire it previous, no. Generally it is so, but sadhu sanga has got its effect. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, lavamatra sadhu sanga sarva siddhi haya. You have not read in the Sanatana-siksha in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya?
Revatinandana: Does that also apply to reading the words of a pure devotee?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: Even a little association with your books has the same effect?
Prabhupada: Effect, of course, it requires both the things. One must be very eager to take it. Just like Maharaja Parikshit heard Srimad-Bhagavatam, and there are so many others. They are also reading Srimad-Bhagavatam. So Maharaja Parikshit was very serious. So both things should be serious. Just like the example: the husband and wife must be potent; then there is pregnancy. Otherwise there is no pregnancy. So sewing the seed, the field also must be fertile or receptive, then the seed will fructify. It is reciprocal. (room conversation, December 13, 1970, Indore)

[Both association with pure devotee and reading his books are required.]

Therefore it is said, srutayo vibhinnah: the scriptures are different. So if you simply try to understand what is God by reading scriptures, you cannot achieve. You must approach a guru. Just like a medical book. It can be available in the market. If you purchase one medical book and study and you become doctor, that is not possible. You must hear the medical book from a medical man in the college, medical college. Then you will be qualified. And if you say, "Sir, I have read all the medical books. Recognize me as a medical practitioner," no, that will be not. ...
Indian lady: How does one contact the spiritual master? Through a book can you contact the spiritual master?
Prabhupada: No, you have to associate.
Syamasundara: "Can you associate through a book?" she asked.
Prabhupada: Yes, through books, and also personal. Because when you make a spiritual master you have got personal touch. Not that in air you make a spiritual master. You make a spiritual master concrete. So as soon as you make a spiritual master, you should be inquisitive. (Bhaktivinoda Thakura Appearance Day, lecture, London, September 3, 1971)

It is stated in the sastra that mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. You cannot understand transcendental subject matter simply by dry speculation and argument. You cannot understand. Neither by reading Vedic literature. The conclusion is that you have to follow those who are authorities. Mahajano yena. Dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. (SB 1.3.19, Los Angeles, September 24, 1972)

Paramahamsa: My question is: A pure devotee, when he comments Bhagavad-gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with his commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?
Prabhupada: Yes. You can associate with Krishna by reading Bhagavad-gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty? Everyone is helping you.
(morning walk, June 11, 1974, Paris)

[SP doesn't say one can associate with pure devotee by reading BG, only with Krsna. Commentaries of pure devotees are supportive though.]

Brian Singer: Do you find that in the translation from the thoughts and the Sanskrit to the English words, then from the English words to the mass of the people's heads, do you find that there is much loss?
Prabhupada: No, if you have grasped the thought, that you can express in any language. But if you cannot grasp the thought, then you cannot express. So the.... Our translation is that we have to receive the thoughts as it is by the parampara system. Therefore it is presented so nicely, and people like it. It is.... It is the value of the subject matter. That we have to receive from authorities. Just like any scientific book, say medical science. You cannot understand medical science by reading the books. It must be received through a medical man. Then it will be clear. Therefore the parampara system.... Arjuna said, evam parampara... Krishna said, evam parampara-praptam [Bg. 4.2]. Everything is parampara. If you receive the knowledge from the authority, then you are in perfect knowledge, simply by..., not by reading the books. Therefore our method is to accept the perfect guru to understand the subject matter. But still, if one reads the books as it is from authorities, there is chance of understanding. Real thing is training. So our institution is training, not only training, full knowledge, practical and theoretical. That is real scientific. If you give up one side, then you can give up the theoretical side, but practical side you cannot give up. Then you'll never come. The two sides, practical and theoretical.... So that is real scientific knowledge. So two sides are presented in our Krishna consciousness movement, and they are being thoroughly trained up. (pause) Take prasadam. (end) (Room Conversation, April 22, 1976, Melbourne)

Nandarani: Krishna was speaking to Arjuna, and Arjuna had real intelligence, but nowadays if someone tries to consider Krishna's instructions and deliberate fully and make some decision, he always makes the wrong decision.
Prabhupada: No, therefore he has to accept spiritual master to guide him. Just like simply by reading books you do not become educated. You go to school and read before the teacher. Then you'll understand. You cannot become a medical man by purchasing books from the market and reading at home. You must go to the medical college. Tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Not only reading, but you go to the person who is actually realized. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34]. Everything is there. You cannot understand individually. That is not possible. If you are extraordinarily intelligent, you can do that. That is exception. But ordinarily it is not possible. Therefore the spiritual master is there. He'll guide you. (Evening darsana, August 11, 1976, Tehran)

Dr. Patel: Sat-sanga is continuously coming in contact with such gurus like you or, I mean, reading that sastras, also is a sat-sanga.
Prabhupada: But reading... By reading, you cannot understand. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. That is also vidhilin: "In order to understand that science, he must go to guru."
Dr. Patel: But, sir, instead of reading no books of knowledge, if you read Bhagavata or Bhagavad-gita, it is a sort of a sat-sanga, and that develops. Someday he'll go to a guru. He'll find out.
Prabhupada: No, no, if he reads Bhagavata, he is not ordinary man.
Dr. Patel: He is on the way up.
Prabhupada: If he reads Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita, he is not ordinary man.
(morning walk, January 8, 1977, Bombay)


SP: "go to guru" (ala Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12, SB 7.12.1)

To hear the right news, the perfect knowledge, you must approach the bona fide spiritual master. Gurum eva abhigacchet. Must! It is not that "I can get knowledge at home. Why shall I go to guru? I do not find any guru." (SB 1.2.15, Vrndavana, October 26, 1972)

Therefore Vedic injunction is to take direction: "You must go to guru." That is in... Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Gurum eva, "Must go." Then he will get right direction. Otherwise misguided. [break] (morning walk, December 15, 1973, Los Angeles)

And the Vedic direction is that if you want really knowledge, then tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] "One has to go to the guru, or the spiritual master." Gurum eva abhigacchet. One must go. There is no alternative. Nobody can say that "Without going to the guru we can become happy." That is not possible, according to Vedic principle. (SB 1.16.25, Hawaii, January 21, 1974)

Guru is therefore external manifestation of Krishna because he acts as representative of Krishna. So what is the qualification of that guru? Tasmad gurum prapadyeta [SB 11.3.21]. You must go and surrender to guru. In the Vedas also it is said, tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamam. For whom guru is required? Not for all. But tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. One should go to guru to understand tad-vijnana. Tad-vijnana means transcendental science. They require guru. Similarly, in the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is said, tasmad gurum prapadyeta: [SB 11.3.21] "You should go and search out a guru and surrender unto him." (SB 1.8.43, Mayapura, September 23, 1974)

Tad-vijnanartham. Vedic lesson is that tad-vijnanartham gurum eva abhigacchet: "You should go to guru."... So this is the injunction of the Vedas, that "If you want real knowledge, you must go to guru." (BG 7.2, Nairobi, October 28, 1975)

When one becomes humble, when actually one understands that he is fool number one, he has to go to guru to understand the value of his life. Then he is intelligent. And so long he keeps himself in the darkness, that "I know everything. Who is richer than me? Who is learned than me? Who is powerful than me? I am this, I am that," that means he is rascal. (SB 1.7.7, Vrndavana, September 6, 1976)

To go to guru means to hear from him, to inquire from him.
tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet
samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham
[MU 1.2.12]
You have to approach such guru. And who is that guru? Vaisnava. Not any ordinary person. (SB 1.7.30-31, Vrndavana, September 26, 1976)


SP: "live with guru"

Of course here, in your country, there is no... In India there is a sudra class. They are..., generally they are servant class. That is called nicavat. So servant class... A brahmacari living at the care of spiritual master, he is advised that "You shall carry out the orders of your spiritual master nicavat, just like the sudra class." Because a person coming to spiritual master, they are coming from brahmana family or kshatriya family or high caste family. But he may say, "Oh, I am coming from a brahmana family, and my spiritual master is ordering to brush his shoes? Oh, how can I do?" Therefore it is advised, nicavat. When you are serving spiritual master, you should always think that "I am lowest of the animals." Nicavat. In that condition you can simply inquire. Otherwise, you have no capacity. There is no need of wasting time, because he will not understand. He will unnecessarily... Pranipata. (SB 1.1.2, London, August 16, 1971)

Therefore brahmacari means living under direction of guru, guror hitam. And guror hitam... How he can be simply thinking of benefiting the spiritual master? Unless that position comes, nobody can serve guru. It is not an artificial thing. The brahmacari, the disciple, must have genuine love for guru. Then he can be under his control. Otherwise why one should be under the control of another person? Therefore it is said, acaran dasavat. Dasa. Dasa means servant. Not only servant, but menial servant. Menial servant means just like the sweeper, the cobbler, like that. They are called menial servants. So in India there is system. The sweeper class is different, the cobbler class is different, and domestic servant is different, and the barber, he is also servant, different. The washerman, he is also servant. So nica means just like the washerman or the barber or the cobbler. They are less than the domestic servant at home. They are sudras, and they are considered less than the sudras, pancama. So a disciple is expected to live in gurukula or... Gurukula means at the shelter of guru; nicavat, menial servant. Menial servant. Nicavat. Acaran dasavan nico gurau sudridha sauhridah. This can be possible when one is very thickly related with the guru. Otherwise ordinary relationship will not do. One who has got actually the conviction, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado... **. One who is convinced that "If I can please my guru, then Krishna will be pleased..." This is called sudridha, full faith. Yasya prasadan na gatih kuto 'pi. "And if I displease my guru, then I have no place." (SB 7.12.1, Bombay, April 12, 1976)

Gargamuni: No, because in India, many Indians, when they approach a guru, they want something. But we didn't have to approach you for anything.
Prabhupada: That is the speciality. The guru... One should go to guru to serve him as menial servant. That is acceptance of guru. That is required. Nicavat. Nica, nica means menial. Just like menial servant, he does everything. Similarly, to live with guru means to serve him as a menial servant. That is Vedic injunction. Nicavat. (room conversation, August 22, 1976, Hyderabad)

Here it is said that brahmacari gurukule vasan danto guror hitam, acaran dasavan nicah. Even if you are coming from the royal family, even if you are coming from the very respectable brahmana family, when you are under the control of guru you should act like servant. And what kind of servant? Menial servant, nica. Not that "I am very rich man's son. You are asking me to do this? No, I cannot do it." No. This is called tapasya. Tapasa brahmacaryena [SB 6.1.13]. (SB 7.12.5, Bombay, April 16, 1975)

Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmacari gurukule vasan danto guror hitam. This is the beginning. A brahmacari should live in the asrama of guru, danta, self-controlled, and only for the benefit of guru, not for anyone's benefit. Brahmacari guru... They'll go, collect alms, and everything should be delivered to guru.
Dr. Patel: When Krishna was sent to collect the wood.
(morning walk, November 17, 1975, Bombay)

Therefore Krishna said that tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg. 4.34]. Pranipatena means fully surrendering. If you have still doubts to surrender, then don't waste time. Don't waste time. That is not the way. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya. Guru has to be given service, that nicavat. That nicavat. Nicavat means menial servant. Whatever guru says... Guru says, "Just brush my shoes." "Yes, sir." You cannot think, "Oh, I am coming from such a respectable person, I am so much learned, and my guru is asking me to 'Brush my shoe'? No, I am not doing it." No, then you are not disciple. Nicavat. (SB 6.1.22, Honolulu, May 22, 1976)

== ritvikism in history ==

It is found only in apasampradayas:

"In Bangladesh, a new version of the Kartabhaja sect was founded some years back by one Anukul Chandra. He is now dead, but latter-day devotees can be directly initiated by him through preachers known as ritviks. New initiates must agree to follow the principles - be vegetarian once a week and worship no deity other than Anukul Chandra's picture." (Suhotra Swami, Apasampradayas http://www.suhotraswami.net/library/Apasampradayas.pdf)

== modern ritvikism's origin ==

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/hare-krishna-forum/284238-where-do-ritviks-come.html

http://www.madhubandit.info/?p=1312#more-1312

Madhu Pandit from Bangalore is a good example of fruits of the tree of ritvikism for everyone to see.

==Jul 9 doc as provisional==

Prabhupada: Hare Krishna. One Bengali gentleman has come from New York?
Tamala Krishna: Yes. Mr. Sukamal Roy Chowdury.
Prabhupada: So I have deputed some of you to initiate. Hm?
Tamala Krishna: Yes. Actually... Yes, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: So I think Jayapataka can do that if he likes. I have already deputed. Tell him.
Tamala Krishna: Yes.
Prabhupada: So, deputies, Jayapataka's name was there?
Bhagavan: It is already on there, Srila Prabhupada. His name was on that list.
Prabhupada: So I depute him to do this at Mayapura, and you may go with him. I stop for the time being. Is that all right?
Tamala Krishna: Stopped doing what, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: This initiation. I have deputed the, my disciples. Is it clear or not?
Giriraja: It's clear.
Prabhupada: You have got the list of the names?
Tamala Krishna: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: And if by Krishna's grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again, or I may not be pressed in this condition to initiate. It is not good.
(room conversation, October 18, 1977, Vrndavana)

== application of ritvikism ==

TFO can't be put into practice since none of the 11 named riviks are either present on the planet or willing to act in this role. Moreover, after their physical disappearance the ritvik system naturally ends and we can pack up the show. This again shows that no one assumed it to be valid in the remote future, just like the Last Will.

== Possible reasons for absence of TFO termination ==

1. natural (accepted by GBC)
It was automatically assumed to end with disappearance of SP by ritviks turning into regular gurus as per 28.5. 1977 conversation ('granddisciple', 'disciple of my disciple') which was clearly understood by TKG and others present. Thus no one thought of ending it as needed. Same for the Last Will which doesn't seem to consider a remote future. No attorney was present to point out this unclear situation. They were provisional documents.

2. invented/aparadha
Between May 28 and July 9 SP suddenly realized (without elaborating anywhere) that he had no qualified disciples to continue as full-time gurus.

This however makes SP himself an unqualified guru who started a new apasampradaya. Moreover, he has no official authorization from BSST to become guru...

3. conspirational
Many docs supporting ritvikism were destroyed by evil GBC, only two escaped (July 9 directive and Last Will)...

== Three provisional systems before reestablishing traditional Vedic system (SB 7.12.1) ==

hand-picked ritviks: July 9 - November 14 1977 (= disappearance day of SP)

zonal acaryas: November 14 - 1987 (failed, quit)

travelling (non-local) gurus: 1987 - present (bridging the time gap before establishing the traditional Vedic guru-disciple system worldwide)


== Vaclav Dvorak aka Vrindavan das (cs Wiki), Garuda (pirosvalmez) ==

- vytrhava z kontextu a cituje neuplne, vynechava nehodici se (typicke pro sekty)
- neni schopen pochopit psany text
- " pouzivat logiku
- " uvest sveho 'zasvecujiciho' ritvika
- " podporit TFO sastrou, guruem a sadhuem


his attempt for an IRM article deleted:

http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISKCON_Revival_Movement_-_Hnut%C3%AD_za_obnovu_p%C5%AFvodn%C3%ADho_ISKCONu

reason:
http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskuse_s_wikipedistou:Wespecz

----

Does SP support creating splinter groups or does he give a general answer (definition) only?

Devotee (1): Do I have to join your movement to be happy? Can I just take Krishna consciousness outside your movement?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (1): So there is no possibility of me being Krishna conscious outside your movement.
Prabhupada: Krishna consciousness can be developed with devotees. Alone it is difficult.
Devotee (1): If I start my own community outside the movement?
Prabhupada: Yes. The community means many devotees.
(morning walk, October 15, 1975, Johannesburg)

